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Recommended machine for home

alfredus said:
OK, after reading everything here and a bit at CS I think the Breville Smart 820 is a good choice - if I get for 199$ - sold out at every Myer store in Australia apparently :(

As for the machine, I will stick to the more traditional methods for now and maybe add an Aeropress to the collection. The "real" machine might come later, but for the near future I just don't have the energy for a steep learning curve...

For all the Aeropress users: I noticed they have paper filers and 3 different types of metal filter - which ones do you prefer (and why)? Obviously would love to get by without the paper waste!
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There is a learning curve on the aeropress too, but not as steep. But keep in mind that the aeropress really lets the bean's flavour come through. So if you get cheap beans, you will taste it. See if you can get 'filter roast' coffee too, as it's lighter and suits the aeropress better.

I wouldn't worry able the metal filters. In theory they let more oils through, since the paper can (in theory) absorb oil. But I doubt anyone can actually notice a difference in a blind test. But the paper filter is finer than the metal ones, and so you get a cleaner cup, which I like. Plus the metal ones are quite fragile, and so if you're not careful you could bend it and then it's useless.

Depending on how much coffee you drink, you could also look into getting a home roaster. I have the behmor 1600 plus, which is about $450 I think. But you save about $25 per kg of coffee, plus you get the flexibility of roasting it to how you like it. So if you use about 1kg per month, you make your money back in 18 months. It's very easy to use too.
 
So we have TWO coffee related threads going at once - no wonder I was confused ...
 
eggbert said:
Like every method for making coffee there is technique involved in making decent coffee out of a moka pot.
I put very hot (but not boilding) water into the bottom chamber, place the coffee and top chamber on, then gently raise the heat until you get the first drips of coffee coming through. Once it is starting to come through try to maintain that temperature.
You don't want the moka pot to be spluttering away or you will get nasty, bitter coffee because as you say it has gone way over the temp required to make a nice coffee.
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Yeah I know that. And in theory you shouldn't get bitter tasting coffee. But unless the grind is perfect and doesn't clog up the filter, the seal is perfect, you use just the right volume of coffee, and the filter is meticulously cleaned after every use, you'll get burnt coffee. I found stovetops to be at best finicky and at worst a complete PITA. The idea that the entire volume of superheated steam and water above standard boiling point in the lower chamber is somehow going to drop to an appropriate temperature to make contact with grinds in a chamber which is also submersed in superheated steam is fanciful. Sure, that might be achieved with the first front of water but that is certainly not the case as everything gets hotter and the last dregs get pushed through. Turning the heat down will certainly limit the damage but that's all it does in my experience. I found the coffee to be always too hot and always taste a little bit to almost entirely bitter.

Nick the Knife said:
.......... with all due respect and given your own admission that you've tried every different machine/method I respectfully suggest it might be user error, supported by the pattern of failure with other devices.

..........especially when as you say yourself you've struck out multiple times in this area yourself ...
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Sorry Nick, but I'm unclear where you get that from. Aside from the stovetop I've had success over a thirty year period with every device I've used, including the standard drip coffee maker, a plunger and a beautiful glass syphon/vacuum percolator. The only "sweeping generalisation" that I'm guilty of is the claim that none of these devices makes coffee as good as a Nespresso or for that matter a push button loaded with good beans. The reason I gave up on push buttons is the undoubted step up in coffe quality and the fact that the miantenance after a few years starts to add up. So @gthomas04 , in answer to your query, I'd be very careful buying a two year old Breville.

I knew the moment I opened my mouth in this thread and dared to mention Nespresso or for that matter push button machines that it would basically get shot down. It's like mentioning that decent kitchen knives don't have to be Japanese on a knife forum or that stainless steel nibs are pretty good on a vintage fountain pen forum. Nobody is going to agree. Not because those statements aren't true but because actually agreeing is tantamount to admitting that, in the case of dedicated home brewers, their carefully selected, and loved machines are to a degree redundant compared to the ease of a push button and the almost moronic simplicity of a Nespresso.

I've had two push button Brevilles over a six year period and I can categorically say that provided you feed them with good beans they do not make mediocre coffee. What do I base this on? Firstly I absolutely detest mediocre coffee and what's more, have made thousands of shots. I'm almost sure that many of the aficionados can certainly not claim the latter. As for Nespresso, I'll wager a bet that in a blind test (assuming you can do the almost impossible of providing the same inputs) it's almost impossible taste the difference with a good barista made coffee.

I had considered going the whole hog with a dedicated hand machine but after speaking to a few qualified baristas was told that it's firstly a steep learning curve (I guess they'd always say that as the alternative would make their jobs too easy) and secondly even when you've reached the top of the curve the first couple of shots from a properly tuned machine are generally below par anyhow and on that basis is pretty much not suited for a limited home use . Don't know if that's true or not but there you go.

Anyhow I promise never again stick my toes in the murky waters of taste and hobbyism that is home brewing.
 
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Nick the Knife said:
Pods are just an improved instant coffee for folks who CBF'd with an espresso machine & the hassle (there's no getting around this) that comes with it. Whilst people can say in THEIR opinion pods are as good as espresso machines I'd hope even the most ardent pod lover would see this very extreme view for what it is. A bit of truth badly packaged into a false comment.

Lets agree that some pod machines can make reasonable espresso coffee which is certainly better than MANY poor efforts rolled out on other machines etc. Their big advantage is in the convenience area, the big weaknesses are you're locked into their system with a high per unit price but if that grade of coffee cuts the mustard for you they're a no brainer choice..
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Have to disagree, and I think there's a lot of coffee snobbery on the go here, nothing wrong with that, but please see it for what it is.

Whilst people who buy expensive machines, maintain them, choose beans according to strict and accepted guidelines amongst the cult, put time into learning how to use all these to make a decent coffee, and therefore simply HAS to be superior - I'd hope you'd see it for the extreme view it is. As PJ says, blind test them and see if the difference is really as big as you think.

Hobbies do this to people's perception of what they find 'good'. PJ and I have seen this with audio geeks, convinced certain file formats and equipment are 'obviously' superior - largely due to the emotional and financial investment of the hobby. Blind tests prove them wrong every time, if they ever dare to take them - so rather than feel silly for spending all their cash, they discredit the testing methods.

I've drunk instant. It's foul and I hated it decades ago, well before coffee was worshipped like a religion. Nespresso pods are a world away from instant. I had a Saeco automatic for many years, and every good coffee I put in it tasted the same, it was ok, but nothing special. I too turned up my nose when the mrs wanted to ditch it for a Nes. I was wrong.

The Nespresso system makes decent coffee. If people think otherwise, they probably just haven't been through enough of them to find the ones they like - some are really average, some are really good. I know 'good' and 'Nes' are an oxymoron to those who subscribe to the cult of coffee. I don't drink coffee out, because most of it is milky tasteless shyte costing nearly $4. 70c for a pod? No contest IMO.

I don't care about being 'locked into a system'. I like the coffee and have no interest in making my own, maintaining machines, or paying overs for very often crap coffee from the latest hipster pop up.
 
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I also imagine that there are pod systems, and there are pod systems. The $20 one you can buy from Woolies is as stable temperature wise as a top of the range Nespresso? I've only tried pods a couple of times, and that was a few years back when there wasn't as much choice to be had. Did not like at all. But, I like short black coffee which is much harder to get right than a milky coffee as the milk can mask some of the undesirable flavours.

I can definitely see a place for pod machines though. Getting one right of dose amount, grind size, tamp strength and surfing of water temperature is hard enough at first, but all 4 at once? Far too frustrating an exercise for most people to work through. Even more so if you try to roast your own.

I'm lucky, the club lever machine I have seems to be more forgiving of getting one or more of the variable slightly wrong and still manages to produce a very reasonable, but the 2 group Rancilio S26 I had before that was a nightmare to get right. When it did, I had a coffee that reminded you of ambrosia (not the rice pudding), but more often than not it was ok at best.

My only real issue with the pods is the freshness of the bean. With fresh beans and a good espresso pour you can get a thick velvetty texture with hints of berry, apple, or chocolate. I have never had that with older beans that were ground a while ago. At best I taste coffee.
 
Firstly @Pjotr , my sincere apologies - you're correct in that I inadvertantly twisted your comments about having used a number of coffee machines through the years with the Nespresso being in your opinion superior - you're 100% right, and it was dopey of my to imply that this meant you'd failed at using the other methodologies.

As we've a way of doing in there parts we've veered well off the path for assisting the OP @alfredus , who to be fair seems to have lost interest in the thread some while back - and instead are blazing our own trail which is now pretty much just discussing the pros vs cons of different systems - and whilst I think it's a good discussion to have it's prolly one we'd get better returns on and also a more sustainable chat in the actual coffee thread.

I've zero issue with anyone who drinks pods, instant or whatever - I think we all see the respective systems for what they are good at some things, PITAs at others - so overall which one is 'BEST' for us is a very personal thing thats subject to multiple variables both tangible and intangible. So alas in internet chats like this we all (myself especially can clumsily misword things or come across the wrong way) so I completely respect pods as a great choice for certain folks/situations etc.

FWIW I'd actually be very surprised if anyone on the forums had a pod machine BEFORE I first did - many moons ago, ~1998 I completely inadvertantly bought a Krups Nespresso machine - I didn't even know it was a pod machine until I'd already committed to buying it. I sold it off after a few weeks as it was never what I was after and I always found it odd that pod machines were almost unheard of until a few yrs ago - with them now being absolutely everywhere! Must be a good story behind that explosion in sales/distribution.

@Drubbing , understand your points, and you make some good ones that I absolutely agree with - however, there's zero snobbery coming from this end. I pride myself on being a realist in all aspects of my life and like I said from the get go pods make reasonable espresso thats often superior to other methods. So you'll not find me slating pods off, but by the same token I'll not promote them as anything overly spesh - their strength is a reasonable beverage thats made with very little dicking around & this is done consistantly. There's a lot to be said for that - hence they're so popular. Anyway as stated we've blown a tad off course but would welcome discussions of this nature in the coffee thread.

Haha FWIW if you could have seen my face this morning when I had to drink a very bitter double shot from my espresso machine you'd have KNOWN I'm far from a card carrying member of the 'espresso machine union' - they've all got their relative strengths and weaknesses. :)

PS. @eggbert makes some excellent points and I agree with just about all of them. Nice post.
 
Drubbing said:
Whilst people who buy expensive machines, maintain them, choose beans according to strict and accepted guidelines amongst the cult, put time into learning how to use all these to make a decent coffee, and therefore simply HAS to be superior
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Sounds like wet shavers?? Yes, But once you experience and discern the truth ... ... ... well the truth shall set you free. I know people who have tried a DE and .. ... ... well it shaves but so does a Gillette cartridge. As Adam Harvey sang, "Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder". Takes all kinds. Coffee like shaving is a personal thing.
 
Nick the Knife said:
Firstly @Pjotr , my sincere apologies - you're correct in that I inadvertantly twisted your comments about having used a number of coffee machines through the years with the Nespresso being in your opinion superior - you're 100% right, and it was dopey of my to imply that this meant you'd failed at using the other methodologies...........
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No worries. No harm done. It's only f.....g coffee after all. Not like shaving. Any slights on ARKO or my plastic razor and just watch me spittin' chips.

eggbert said:
I also imagine that there are pod systems, and there are pod systems.........
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Yeah there are unfortunately. For obvious reasons the various manufacturers didn't get together and decide to have a uniform loading slot, so pods ain't pods. Everybody's got pod systems now. Every time I walk in to the Nespresso shop there are four people serving non stop. I swear I see at least two customers walking out with new machines every time. It's insane. I've tried most of them at various peoples houses and Nespresso pods (the high strength ones) are the best tasting in my opinion. Of course the whole issue with pods is the fact that you have no idea what standard of bean goes in and if indeed it's fresh etc etc. One day when we get bored with Nespresso I'll go the whole hog and become a dedicated home brewer. I do miss not having a bag of beans around the house. It's a sort of disconnect.
 
Dale.Whiley said:
Sounds like wet shavers?? Yes, But once you experience and discern the truth ... ... ... well the truth shall set you free. I know people who have tried a DE and .. ... ... well it shaves but so does a Gillette cartridge. As Adam Harvey sang, "Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder". Takes all kinds. Coffee like shaving is a personal thing.
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I was waiting for that.

No carts aren't any worse (or better) than DE - for most people. For some who have mutliblade issues, they are. All of us here can probably get as good a result with a cart as with our favourite stuff, knowing better how to go about shaving. The thing that makes it different for us is the tactile stuff and the savings, provided it doesn't become another acquisitional hobby. With coffee, the user benefits are just as subjective, but cost a lot more time and money to achieve.
 
I quite like my Nespresso machine.
If only the frothers (Aerowhatthefuckever) lasted longer! My latest aftermarket from Breville takes over 5 minutes to warm milk. Hopeless.
 
Best I could get -


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Two out of three ...
 
filobiblic said:
Guns go with everything. Don't you know?
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Well yeah over at B&B it obviously does. However a coffee mug with a statement like that is a bit weird. You'd think it should be more like: I like dead niggers and guns.
 
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