Knives & Knife sharpening

[Nick the Knife]

Fellas,

How is it that this forum has been going for many moons now and no-one's discussed knives and keeping them razor sharp? Haha surely the folks in these parts would want to ensure they're using decent kitchen knives (or hobby knives if thats you're thing) but more importantly that they're maintained well to get the best possible results from them.

I have to say I'm kinda proud to be the founding poster in this gargantuan thread over at WP which primarily deal with one of the most highly regarded knife sharpening systems on the market, the Edge Pro Apex and a very affordable replica of it thats sold on Ebay.

I have to say I find knives quite interesting things as it's almost certain EVERY household on the planet has one/some.....they perform the same basic function that they have for thousands of years....and essentially they're a one trick pony/single use tool - they cut, thats all they do! Essentially they're also a very mature technology with a knife made several hundred yrs ago being able to outperform a brand new $200+ one from a high end shop.

Therefore I do find it kind of odd that the vast majority of folks take them completely for granted and seriously I'd say 90%+ of folks are content to use blunt knives......which I find bizarre as their sole purpose is cutting!!!! If they're not sharp they can't do this so why would you not make sure they're kept sharp???

Oddly whilst a lot of folks 'like' knives the proper care & sharpening techniques for them are SO widely not understood or appreciated by people - hence they will drop $300+ on a blockset of knives but spend nothing on proper sharpening gear nor learning how to maintain them. Haha hence in 12mths time they're wondering why their knives don't cut so well!!!!! End up ruining them taking them to a 'Mr Minit' type sharpening mob or using some Demtel/TV sharpening tool that ruins the knives!!!!

I don't want to re-hash all the info from the thread but in short (and in no particular order) here are the gems I'd have for anyone who likes their knives.

• Blocksets are VERY OVERRATED & poor value for most home buyers. Instead go with a couple of different knives but of good quality. e.g 7"+ cooks knife, paring knife, cheapish bread knife, cheap asian style cleaver
• Even the best knife in the world will be dull with several months usage - hence buying the appropriate sharpening gear and learnign how to use it is essential for anyone with knives!
• Best value knives on the market are generally regarded to be the Victorinox range of kitchen knives
• Harder steels (e.g japanese, HRC60+) does NOT mean its going to make a better knife. Harder steels require specialist sharpening materials/techniques, generally are more prone to corrosion & chipping/breakage thus less forgiving to the average home user. Really each user should handpick the knives based on their needs/expected uses etc.
• Unless your knives are rubbish you should ALWAYS hand wash & dry after use - do not place in the dishwasher!
• If you use 'softer' steel knives learn how to PROPERLY use a 'honing steel' to assist in maintaining the edge. Note the steel should be smooth NOT ridged (these ruin the edge) and should be used slowly and very gently.....not like you think you're the local butcher!
• Learn the concept of the angle of blades as it makes a big difference to maintaining a proper sharp edge if you're putting the proper angle on it in the first place (plus minimises chipping etc)
• Use a proper wooden or plastic/rubber chopping board! Other materials will damage the knife's edge
• 'Diamond' encrusted sharpening tools are overrated and other than the very expensive ones deliver poor value to consumers as they're technically flawed (diamonds are pulled out of their holding material. Will work great at start but have short usable lifespan compared to other comparable abrasives that cost far less & perform longer

FWIW I've very affordable knives myself. I've 3 Wusthof Classic knives (6" cooks, 6" utility, 4" utility) that I bought when I was young and dumb, overpaid for them. They're very forgiving and sound performing knives but are nothing spesh. I also have a cheap asian style cleaver, which I think everyone should have one of. Often confused with western cleavers (which are used for chopping bones etc) but these are meant for 'slicing' & all around usage.

I recently organised a group buy over at WP with one of the best knife retailers on the planet, Chef's Knives to Go - for their 8" Artifex Gyuto. Its a sensational knife made of a 'super steel' that was forumlated for shaving use, so is able to hold a great edge whilst also very corrosion resistant. I love this knife.

To maintain my knives I have a smooth butchers steel, a ceramic butchers steel and a diamond steel (bought when I was young and dumb!). I also have the Edge Pro replica....known amongst users as the Edge Faux.

FWIW I think every person who has knives should get one......very easy to use and at ~$32 delivered I don't think you could ever make a better investment for your knives. Lots of sellers of these, I just picked one at random.

Would welcome any knife related chat & please feel free to read over the thread over at WP - its got some very good stuff in it.

Cheers, Nick

 

[SmallYetDeadly]

I have a wonderful block set of mundial knives. POS knives that chip on the edge like nobodies business.

The wife has a couple of nicer Henckels knives which are pretty good, she treats them super rough though. Maybe a good purchase Nick. Cheers for the link.

 

[Nick the Knife]

I have a wonderful block set of mundial knives. POS knives that chip on the edge like nobodies business.

The wife has a couple of nicer Henckels knives which are pretty good, she treats them super rough though. Maybe a good purchase Nick. Cheers for the link.

Mundial's do have a bit of a reputation for chipping and breakages....but to be fair any knife will chip if you cut frozen food (probably IMHO the only reason for using a serrated knife!) or bones. But they use the same steel alloy as many other more expensive brands and are quite reasonable value for money. They're a very common 'blockset' buy as it seems like you get a lot of bang for your buck at first glance.

Henckels have a huge range of knives they make...I've even seen that BigW or Target now stock them! But they have some very nice stuff as well and traditionally are one of the better 'pro-sumer' brands. Yes, sorry to generalise but females tend to treat their knives very badly. Need to keep a set of cheapies around for one's missus to use! Mine is the same.

 

[SmallYetDeadly]

Do you really need to upgrade the stones that come with that ebay one or is that more a preference to use something of a better quality?

 

[JugV2]

Re: Knives & Knife sharpening

A well worded and informative post Nick.

I have an Asian cleaver which I can slice with and also chop if I have to. They are a very versatile blade.
I have a 7", 5" and a butcher's knife. I bought the butchers knife from a butcher, specifically for slicing raw meat. It gets used for nothing else.
I'm also a firm believer in handwashing and putting knives away immediately after use. Never a dishwasher.
I do all the cooking so I make sure the knives get treated well. As soon as any of my knives feel less sharp than they should, I take them to a professional knife sharpener that my butcher uses. I don't have any knowledge on how to sharpen a blade so I leave it to a pro.
There is nothing worse than a blunt knife when you need to cut.

2

 

[Nick the Knife]

As soon as any of my knives feel less sharp than they should, I take them to a professional knife sharpener that my butcher uses. I don't have any knowledge on how to sharpen a blade so I leave it to a pro.
There is nothing worse than a blunt knife when you need to cut.

Thanks for your kind words. It was a bit of a jabber but I wrote all I could on that other thread and it was feeling like reinventing the wheel.

FWIW consider grabbing that sharpener...its very simple to use and in my experience a lot of pro sharpeners tend to adopt practices that are quick but not exactly knife friendly e.g using power driven grind wheels etc. I don't mean it in a bad way but I'd be a bit cautious of a butcher that doesn't do all the work on their knives themselves. I've never heard of one not doing all their own work as they tend to use soft steel, commercial grade knives (generally Victorinox) and these need resharpening almost daily with the work they do. They go through their knives very regularly hence outsourcing this basic work to someone else would really cost them a packet.

Butchers and their knives are funny.....a lot of folks will say, but my butcher does it this way etc......for them the knives are their most basic and common tool - plus they're essentially disposable - hence they tend to be very rough and ready with them and the way they prep them - eg you'll see them steeling their knives very fast and with significant force - this is actually the exact opposite of what you're meant to do but they have to do it so often it's really not a big problem.

Please don't get me wrong - if getting someone to do the work for you works best c'est la vie BUT I'll give you a stone solid promise that you'll do a SUPERIOR job on this lil machine and it will pay for itself within I'd imagine what you pay for 5 or so knife sharpens.....plus all the other ones round the house that you wouldn't justify paying to have sharpened. I guarantee you'd love it.

I do hate to generalise but the vast majority of pro knife sharpeners won't really put much thought or effort into sharpening your knives. Yes they'll come back reasonably sharp but thats only PART of what any professional should do. They should really put the right angle on dependant on the knife/grade of steel and also the user level of the owner. But like I said whatever works for you....we got a LOT of folks trying this sharpening system over at WP and I am certain not a single one came back and said they didn't like it or it was too hard to use etc. Plus doing it yourself does really make you feel kinda empowered...especially as you're like me and do all the cooking as well.

 

[gthomas04]

I am the possesor of a variety of knives but the pride of my collection is a set (knife fork and steel) I inherited from my Father.These are all bone handled (reputededly deer horn) and I am told trace their origin back to the building of the Pacific railway in the USA. That would make them well over a hundred years old. Dad always used them to carve the Sunday roast and after he died I kept up enough pressure that my Mother finally sent them ot me. The only problem I have is the blade of the knife has thinned down with use and I do not really want to attack it too visciously with the steel as a consequence it is not as sharp as it should be. If anyone is interested I will put some photos up as I have never seen its like.I would be very interested Nick f you thought the sharpening system you have would be usable on this knife.

 

[JugV2]

I'd like to see a pic of this set, Glen, if you're able to put up a shot.
That's a great story behind the blade too.

 

[eggbert]

I have two nice knives, both from JapaneseChefsKnife.Com . A CarboNext Gyuto and a Fujiwara petty
I also have a couple of cheaper Vitorinox parers (one serrated for tomatoes etc.), and a handful of Kiwi brand knives.

I bought a combo whetstone from JCK and generally have no trouble sharpening the knives. However I did learn to use the whetstone on the kiwi's - wasn't brave enough to learn on the good ones.

The kiwi knives are soft steel, but easy to sharpen, and my partner is happy enough using them. Most of the time she will leave my nicer knives alone luckily.

 

[eggbert]

Do you really need to upgrade the stones that come with that ebay one or is that more a preference to use something of a better quality?

I'd be interested in an answer to this too. The Edge Pro is way beyond what I can justify, but this looks pretty good unless it needs replacement stones that are quite exxy.

 

[Pjotr]

Having been a wood worker in a previous life, I've got a healthy fetish for sharp tools including knives. Have used loads of different makes of kitchen knives and the only stainless steel ones that I seem to hold on to are made by ICEL. In my experience many SS knives are either too hard (hence the Mundial chipping) or too soft in which case they hardly hold an edge and end up taking up space in some forgotten kitchen drawer. Don't care what anybody says, but the best knives without a shadow of a doubt are carbon steel. Easy as hell to sharpen and very forgiving on that front too. They do need cleaning and drying after each use and the occasional light rub down and oiling to prevent rusting.

For sharpening I use an Ozitech (OZITECH Diamond Fingers Pro Knife Sharpener and Honer by Rachael Ray from Furi at Cooking.com) which is probably not the best out there but it does the job. When it stops working I'll probably get something like the one Nick has posted. Looks pretty good but I'm not sure it'll hold a lot of my smaller knives. After cutting the angle, if I'm feeling like a purist, I'll run a fine grade whetstone over it to smooth things up a bit and after that it's regular use of a steel. The older and smoother the better.

Generally if you religiously use a cutting board, do not shove them in a dishwasher or store them loose in a kitchen drawer they'll stay sharp and usable. I think knife blocks look a bit naff and, because I also like looking at them (I know, it's a little bit sad), I stick them on a magnetic strip. By the way if you do have a block make sure to place them edge up rather than edge down in the slot.

Nice post Nick.

 

[Drubbing]

I do most of the cooking at home and I try yo buy decent knives - haven't found anything that really lasts.

Had a couple of Globals for many years, and they've been good value, but the last couple they pretty much need a sharpen every use. Until they got pitted, and dull I always looked after them, handwashed and dried.

I can't put an edge on, so just bodge it with a double sided stone. Also got one of those cheap ceramic push pull things and that puts a quick and dirty edge on. They won't cut anything otherwise - they're pretty much done.

A few months ago I couldn't stomach going a Henckels or Wusthof, so got a Scanpan. The right size, good weight and balance and a really good edge on it. It's still uber sharp, but I can see the edge pitting already, that's pretty poor.

I recently organised a group buy over at WP with one of the best knife retailers on the planet, Chef's Knives to Go - for their 8" Artifex Gyuto. Its a sensational knife made of a 'super steel' that was forumlated for shaving use, so is able to hold a great edge whilst also very corrosion resistant. I love this knife.

Those look particularly awesome - and cheap - 8" is huge though.

 

[Mark1966]

Great thread and great info.

Seriously thinking of doing some reading and getting one of these. Thanks Nick!

 

[Drubbing]

Some decent knives linked here. Are they all online or is anyone local carrying these?

 

[Nick the Knife]

I would be very interested Nick f you thought the sharpening system you have would be usable on this knife.

Let me second Jug in saying thats a sensational story. I commend you on being so resolute in getting what are a priceless piece of your family's history.

Obviously I'd need a lil more info (ideally a picture to be certain) but it sounds to me like the knife has been worn down over time and now essentially the 'cutting edge' it much higher up the knife than it originally was meaning that the cross-section of the steel is much THICKER.

This is a common problem with older and much used knives. It's very easily solved and I can assure you that this sharpening system is actually PERFECT for use as it allows you to be very controlled in your actions....something that can be hard for non-expert sharpeners when going freehand on whetstones.

What you essentially have to do is 'thin the blade' which is putting a taper back on the knife around 1/3 of the way up from the edge. You do this at quite an acute angle e.g 8 degrees. The idea being once you've got this put on (known as the primary bevel) you will then put the cutting edge back on again (sometimes referred to as the secondary bevel)....but you'd do this based on the knife/steel/use....but 18-20degrees is generally a good choice for what is sure to be a knife made of a fine quality steel like yours.

I've done it once myself and it just take a fair while to thin down a fair bit of the metal. That said I'm 100% confident that you'd have the ability to do it yourself - it's quite basic concepts and will be an excellent project for you. I'm happy to assist you any way I can, so please feel free to take me up on it.

I have two nice knives, both from JapaneseChefsKnife.Com . A CarboNext Gyuto and a Fujiwara petty
I also have a couple of cheaper Vitorinox parers (one serrated for tomatoes etc.), and a handful of Kiwi brand knives

Nice selection of knives, well thought through indeed! CarboNext's were big a few yrs ago as for non-knife folks there's generally 2 broad families of knives....one made of stainless steel and those made of carbon steel. Each has it's pro's and con's.....but as a general rule the former are far more user friendly but less able to hold a 'screaming edge'. Hence this range was a bit of a hybrid alloy knife that was quite popular.

Fujiwara's FKM range is, with Tojiro's DP range regarded as the best true entry point to getting genuinely nice knives. ANd the Kiwi's just show what I said about cheap knives that are maintained well being better than more expensive ones that are not.....they're good lil kitchen tools haha but not family heirloom's like Glen's bonehandled ones! ;-)

Do you really need to upgrade the stones that come with that ebay one or is that more a preference to use something of a better quality?

The stones that come with the 'EdgeFaux' are very usable and the average user could easily do everything he needs with these.....no question. However, yes in the grand scheme of things they're not as good as 3rd party replacement stones and so MANY users will buy these to give better or faster results. You can source from loads of place. Personally I have found and successfully promoted a lil company called Congress Tools in the US who you can get excellent replacement stones from for very low prices (including postage!). Happy to help folks with stone selections but I'd get the ones included and try them first as they'll be FINE for most people.

In my experience many SS knives are either too hard (hence the Mundial chipping) or too soft in which case they hardly hold an edge and end up taking up space in some forgotten kitchen drawer.

Mundial's problems shoudl not be related to the alloy they're made from (which i believe is X50CrMoV15, a very widely used German steel) as even when hardened as much as possible its still relatively soft, 54-56HRC. I think they're just not that well made and probably cut some corners in the manufacturing process.

Don't care what anybody says, but the best knives without a shadow of a doubt are carbon steel. Easy as hell to sharpen and very forgiving on that front too. They do need cleaning and drying after each use and the occasional light rub down and oiling to prevent rusting.

I know what you're saying but for the vast majority of people carbon steel knives would be an absolute disaster. There's so many good steel alloys being used these days that you can get some excellent non-carbon knives without trading off all the agreeably wonderful attributes than carbon knives have. That said I agree that for someone who KNOWS their knives and is prepared to care for them carbon knives are the way to go....but most folks aren't them. ;-)

For sharpening I use an Ozitech (OZITECH Diamond Fingers Pro Knife Sharpener and Honer by Rachael Ray from Furi at Cooking.com) which is probably not the best out there but it does the job.

Furi have a very bad reputation in the knife scene for being shocking at misleading consumers with a lot of their product claims etc. That said I know a lot of folks like these sharpeners. C'est la vie.

 

[Nick the Knife]

Nice post Nick.

Thanks pal, great info in there yourself.

Generally if you religiously use a cutting board, do not shove them in a dishwasher or store them loose in a kitchen drawer they'll stay sharp and usable

All true and excellent advice but normal household quality knives will still need sharpening (the removal of metal to put an edge back on it) atleast on a quarterly basis. If your knives are suitable using a butchers steel each time BEFORE you use them (or atleast every few times) will delay this a tad - otherwise an easy option than many like to use is a ceramic steel/hone. These are around 1200 grit and remove steel to actively sharpen but do it in a very friendly easy way. Often they're quite expensive but Ikea sells an excellent one named Flaksa(from memory) for around $15. They're white and quite delicate so be careful.

I can't put an edge on, so just bodge it with a double sided stone. Also got one of those cheap ceramic push pull things and that puts a quick and dirty edge on. They won't cut anything otherwise - they're pretty much done.

Sounds to me like they've probably been sharpened a lil 'roughly' and as a result the blade needs thinning (like with Glen)....once the blade gets too wide it doesn't matter how sharp an edge you put on it won't cut things well. Globals ship with an 18 degree angle on them and they're solid knives....but I hate the handle and feel they're unduly hyped for what they are.

I do most of the cooking at home and I try yo buy decent knives - haven't found anything that really lasts.

Hmmm this is a tad weird.....it sounds to me like you're possibly treating the knives a bit 'roughly'. You've really got to handwash after use or anything you get will end up suffering.......this does go against the 'old school' way that a lot of folks handled knives but its very easy to do once you get into the swing of it. Pitting is usually cuased by dishwashing or leaving with acidic food on them for hours before washing.

Those look particularly awesome - and cheap - 8" is huge though.

ANyone wanna make a "schoolboy joke" here? Ummm not really.....you'll find that people serious about cooking will use nothing less than an 8".....more blade may seem cumbersome but its of massive advantage when prepping food. Once you use them you won't go back. Cooks themselves tend to use 10"...so 8" is very usable.

You also have to take into account that ...AND BRACE FOR THIS.........most people do NOT hold their knives correctly nor use a proper cutting technique. Haha now I'm NOT going all Masterchefy on you but seriously folks should try and use whats know as the 'pinch grip' whenever you can....this means you choke down a little on the knife and so having the bigger knife is a blessing. Also different foods should be cut using different cutting styles....a lot of people do the one style for all...but thats another subject.

Honestly cooks/chef's knives are kinda like harddrives and flat panels.....in that you're better going bigger than smaller when you buy one. You'll never regret this and will grow into it but inversely you'll look back and go,'Oops!" and have to upgrade again way too soon.

Some decent knives linked here. Are they all online or is anyone local carrying these?

Depends which links you're talking about...the mob I organised the groupbuy to, Chefs Knives to Go is in Wisconsin, and alas their postage rates are horrible! (Like $30 for a single knife!!!!) hence we did the group buy with 10 people to make it cost feasible.

For a smaller buy JCK that Eggbert linked is good as they charge like $5 postage or something like that. But a lot of their stuff is high end. The Fujiwara FKM range is well regarded and very user friendly. Otherwise this ebay seller has a very good reputation and sells the excellent Tojiro knives, which are equal top recommendation for folks wanting great knives at an entry level price.

BUT like I said I think you'd be best off examining the cleaning/handling practices you have as otherwise these knives will suffer the same probs as your previous/current ones.....or even worse as they have a core of VG-10 steel which is mildly reactive. Personally I'd recommend you look at the Victorinox range....their Fibrox handled knives are excellent and actually very tactile and user friendly. They also come in rosewood handles, which just look a lot nicer. These are excellent knives that can't be beaten for value and are VERY widely used in commercial kitchens.

FWIW if we get enough interest I don't mind organising another group buy to CKtG, they do have superb products and their Artifex range is (IMHO) the best performance knives you can buy for that kind of sensible money in the world.

 

[SmallYetDeadly]

Pulled the trigger on the ebay sharpener Nick linked.

Most likely course of action...work out how to get a good servicable edge.

Get gung ho and ruin it with my coticule :laugh:

 

[Drubbing]

BUT like I said I think you'd be best off examining the cleaning/handling practices you have as otherwise these knives will suffer the same probs as your previous/current ones.....or even worse as they have a core of VG-10 steel which is mildly reactive. Personally I'd recommend you look at the Victorinox range....their Fibrox handled knives are excellent and actually very tactile and user friendly. They also come in rosewood handles, which just look a lot nicer. These are excellent knives that can't be beaten for value and are VERY widely used in commercial kitchens.

I'm fairly well versed in knife use and care. I wash all my knives by hand, usually as soon as I've finished with them. No scourers. The Globals only started pitting long after they were starting to dull, and had chipped edges and I started to put them in the dishwasher - they weren't going to get any worse than they already were and I'd had 5+ years from them by then.

But this Scanpan has had less than 6 months use, and the edge has chips on it already. Handwashed, dried, put away upside in a knife block.

 

[gthomas04]

But this Scanpan has had less than 6 months use, and the edge has chips on it already. Handwashed, dried, put away upside in a knife block.

Gotta stop using them to shave with Drubbing.

 

[Nick the Knife]

I'm fairly well versed in knife use and care. I wash all my knives by hand, usually as soon as I've finished with them. No scourers. The Globals only started pitting long after they were starting to dull, and had chipped edges and I started to put them in the dishwasher - they weren't going to get any worse than they already were and I'd had 5+ years from them by then.

But this Scanpan has had less than 6 months use, and the edge has chips on it already. Handwashed, dried, put away upside in a knife block.

Hmmmm I actually did get a 'feeling' you were relatively savvy with your knives but I've not heard of such pitting problems occurring from anything other than poor post-usage handling. But everything you've stated is perfect care, so I'm at a loss. :-/

Here's some info that might help. Generally cleaning it back with some bicarb soda or similar will be fine for several months. Dare I say it but whilst you're treating perfectly perhaps others in your house aren't? I know I'm great with the knives but my wife used to be a terror! Suffice to say she knows better now.

Scanpan, whilst new to the knife scene are regarded as making reasonable stuff albeit nothing spesh (like their very highly regarded non-stick cookware).....but still I think they use the same alloy as Wusthof/Victorinox and so pitting should not be a problem as its regarded as being very corrosion resistant.

5+ yrs from decent knives with proper usage is nothing at all....my Wusthof's (which are overpriced for what they are on a technical level) are still every bit as good as new and could pass as new if I wanted to polish the blades. That said I know a lot of folks churn through decent quality sets every 5yrs or so, but technically this shouldn't be happening unless there's some pretty extreme variables at play. In this way we're lucky as we're empty nesters....kids would make me want to buy a couple of sets of the Kiwi branded thai knives.