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Knot Size - expectations...

Korbz

Korbz

Member
Hi all,

Just wanted to get an idea around the general consensus of knot sizes. There seems to be a large difference between knot specialists that do brushes, and brush makers. What I mean by this, is when you order a 25mm from Bernd @ Shavemac, you get a 25mm knot, put inside a handle. The visible width at the top of the handle will be larger (for my 25mm it measures a shade under 28mm). Whereas, with other premade brushes you would get a 25mm visible knot width if you ordered a 25mm brush (so potentially slightly smaller plug depending on how densely packed the hair is).

So, if you ordered a 26mm brush, would you

a) expect a 26mm knot put into a handle which would turn out to be 28mm+ visible
b) expect a 26mm visible width at the top of the handle and not care what plug size, provided it is densely packed?

Cheers, Korbz
 
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Korbz said:
Hi all,

Just wanted to get an idea around the general consensus of knot sizes. There seems to be a large difference between knot specialists that do brushes, and brush makers. What I mean by this, is when you order a 25mm from Bernd @ Shavemac, you get a 25mm knot, put inside a handle. The visible width at the top of the handle will be larger (for my 25mm it measures a shade under 28mm). Whereas, with other premade brushes you would get a 26mm visible knot width (so potentially slightly smaller plug depending on how densely packed the hair is).

So, if you ordered a 26mm brush, would you

a) expect a 26mm knot put into a handle which would turn out to be 28mm+ visible
b) expect a 26mm visible width at the top of the handle and not care what plug size, provided it is densely packed?

Cheers, Korbz
Click to expand...
Tough question @Korbz. Generally speaking it is easy to research and find out how a maker sizes their brushes. That being said for my mind the knot size should relate to the plug size and therefore the knot is larger coming out of the handle.
 
If you order a 26mm from a commercial complete brush maker (Simpson, Thater, Paladin, Vie-Long) you will get 26mm at the rim of the handle...

If you order a 26mm knot (and don't forget Shavemac is actually a knot maker) you will get 26mm measured at the plug of the knot (the very bottom).

The size at the rim of the handle then depends on the loft you set it (or let it set).

So if you discuss things with artisan brush makers - they often have bought a knot for you. And since they don't know in advance, what loft you are going for, it is easier to discuss everything with a knot measured at the plug.
 
@Korbz I am certainly following this one :) Being that I am relatively new at this handle knot game and being that I have a beard and do not wet shave ( I know I have sinned).
I have spent a very considerable time reading, reviewing, watching YT videos, etc, etc over the last few weeks and to me It all appears to be very unnecessarily complicated, however going with the flow and from what I have found and understand so far, it would appear more so an issue on the custom made handle brush side of things as brush/handle combos are set in place.
Now from what I have seen thus far, lets say we have a knot 24mm then the socket size (diameter) in most cases is slightly larger and anywhere up to 2mm from what I have seen and larger in some cases. So I am very interested to hear more on this. On the other hand the depth of the knot socket in the handle seems even more confusing to me. Now if I am not missing anything here, to me it is easy to provide and or work out a given loft but the size of the hole in diameter at the top of the handle does nothing to change loft. My thoughts are that the diameter of the hole at the top of the handle only changes the amount of backbone in the actual brush if my terminology is correct :eek: so if I am right a smaller socket diameter for the knot will give it more backbone, a larger hole will soften the backbone. A shallower handle socket will increase loft but also provide a softer brush, where as a deeper handle socket will reduce loft and provide more backbone.:confused:
I will leave it there for now as I think I am confusing myself and I am now none the wiser !! (Well I guess I am) But I will certainly be keeping a close eye on this thread ;)
Cheers
Tony
 
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alfredus said:
If you order a 26mm from a commercial complete brush maker (Simpson, Thater, Paladin, Vie-Long) you will get 26mm at the rim of the handle...

If you order a 26mm knot (and don't forget Shavemac is actually a knot maker) you will get 26mm measured at the plug of the knot (the very bottom).

The size at the rim of the handle then depends on the loft you set it (or let it set).

So if you discuss things with artisan brush makers - they often have bought a knot for you. And since they don't know in advance, what loft you are going for, it is easier to discuss everything with a knot measured at the plug.
Click to expand...
@alfredus has articulate what i was trying to say much better and in much better detail.

IMO when the knot size is based on the plug size and not the size at the top of the handle it is easier to make decisions regarding loft etc.
 
Tony Forsyth said:
@Korbz I am certainly following this one :) Being that I am relatively new at this handle knot game and being that I have a beard and do not wet shave ( I know I have sinned).
I have spent a very considerable time reading, reviewing, watching YT videos, etc, etc over the last few weeks and to me It all appears to be very unnecessarily complicated, however going with the flow and from what I have found and understand so far, it would appear more so an issue on the custom made handle brush side of things as brush/handle combos are set in place.
Now from what I have seen thus far, lets say we have a knot 24mm then the socket size (diameter) in most cases is slightly larger and anywhere up to 2mm from what I have seen and larger in some cases. So I am very interested to hear more on this. On the other hand the depth of the knot socket in the handle seems even more confusing to me. Now if I am not missing anything here, to me it is easy to provide and or work out a given loft but the size of the hole in diameter at the top of the handle does nothing to change loft. My thoughts are that the diameter of the hole at the top of the handle only changes the amount of backbone in the actual brush if my terminology is correct :eek: so if I am right a smaller socket diameter for the knot will give it more backbone, a larger hole will soften the backbone. A shallower handle socket will increase loft but also provide a softer brush, where as a deeper handle socket will reduce loft and provide more backbone.:confused:
I will leave it there for now as I think I am confusing myself and I am now none the wiser !! (Well I guess I am) But I will certainly be keeping a close eye on this thread ;)
Cheers
Tony
Click to expand...

Nope, you're 100% correct sir. Through socket diameter and depth you can control the backbone and splay. Generally the socket diameter will be just large enough to fit the knot, and the depth is used to control the backbone/splay. The problem is a lot of knots from china (even from same manufacturer) are inconsistent and require slightly different socket widths and depths to give a good outcome. You'll see that from paladin who articulate it the best. They list the characteristics of each knot shipment they receive and explain how the glue bump, knot density and other things affects the way they set it.

It does seem overly convoluted at times, but I liken it to a coles $0.80 coffee vs a barista coffee in Lygon St. They give the same product, but the science and training for the barista, even with the same raw ingredients, would produce a totally different finished product.
 
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alfredus said:
If you order a 26mm from a commercial complete brush maker (Simpson, Thater, Paladin, Vie-Long) you will get 26mm at the rim of the handle...

If you order a 26mm knot (and don't forget Shavemac is actually a knot maker) you will get 26mm measured at the plug of the knot (the very bottom).

The size at the rim of the handle then depends on the loft you set it (or let it set).

So if you discuss things with artisan brush makers - they often have bought a knot for you. And since they don't know in advance, what loft you are going for, it is easier to discuss everything with a knot measured at the plug.
Click to expand...

Yep, articulated much better than I did :)
 
Tony Forsyth said:
@Korbz I am certainly following this one :) Being that I am relatively new at this handle knot game and being that I have a beard and do not wet shave ( I know I have sinned).
I have spent a very considerable time reading, reviewing, watching YT videos, etc, etc over the last few weeks and to me It all appears to be very unnecessarily complicated, however going with the flow and from what I have found and understand so far, it would appear more so an issue on the custom made handle brush side of things as brush/handle combos are set in place.
Now from what I have seen thus far, lets say we have a knot 24mm then the socket size (diameter) in most cases is slightly larger and anywhere up to 2mm from what I have seen and larger in some cases. So I am very interested to hear more on this. On the other hand the depth of the knot socket in the handle seems even more confusing to me. Now if I am not missing anything here, to me it is easy to provide and or work out a given loft but the size of the hole in diameter at the top of the handle does nothing to change loft. My thoughts are that the diameter of the hole at the top of the handle only changes the amount of backbone in the actual brush if my terminology is correct :eek: so if I am right a smaller socket diameter for the knot will give it more backbone, a larger hole will soften the backbone. A shallower handle socket will increase loft but also provide a softer brush, where as a deeper handle socket will reduce loft and provide more backbone.:confused:
I will leave it there for now as I think I am confusing myself and I am now none the wiser !! (Well I guess I am) But I will certainly be keeping a close eye on this thread ;)
Cheers
Tony
Click to expand...

The handle you made for me had a 22mm diameter hole. The knot that I glued in there was only 18 at the base. This is to allow the knot to bloom/splash out.
 
Sxot said:
The handle you made for me had a 22mm diameter hole. The knot that I glued in there was only 18 at the base. This is to allow the knot to bloom/splash out.
Click to expand...
How did it all turn out @Sxot be nice to see a picture with the hair stuck down its throat :-)
Cheers & Thanks
Tony
 
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