Wow, Mark.
I'd love to get my hands on a 20-30k stone.
I fear it is significantly out of my price bracket, though.
I'd love to get my hands on a 20-30k stone.
I fear it is significantly out of my price bracket, though.
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My Journey on the Straight Path
- Thread starter filobiblic
- Start date
I'd say pretty limited range, and rather steep on the dollar front.
Shapton for example, $389 on MenzBiz.
In fact, Shapton is the only brand I found on a Google search. I found reference to glass, ceramic and natural waterstone, so I'm not sure if they are just the same one worded differently.
Shapton for example, $389 on MenzBiz.
In fact, Shapton is the only brand I found on a Google search. I found reference to glass, ceramic and natural waterstone, so I'm not sure if they are just the same one worded differently.
filobiblic
Facepeeler Extraordinare
State Convenor - NSW
Group Buy Caporegime
2017 Sabbatical Fail
2016 Sabbatical Fail
2015 Sabbatical Fail
Shave 14
One pass WTG on the whole face with one lather. It's noticeably more comfortable both holding the razor and using it. It feels slightly quicker as well.
One pass WTG on the whole face with one lather. It's noticeably more comfortable both holding the razor and using it. It feels slightly quicker as well.
You don't need to spend a fortune for a super high grit stone. You can go through Ken Schwartz in the US and get a Suehiro Gokumyo 20k in a EP size 1x6 which is perfect for a razor for the fraction of the price.
In all honesty, the most important hone in anyone's kit is the 1k (bevel setter). The finish quality of an edge is not mainly in regards to how well you can polish it although that helps. It is mainly reflected on the low grits, once a bevel is perfectly set which is the biggest challenge in your entire progression, you can get excellent shaves by finishing off a 10k or an 8k followed by compouds.
Polishing up an already established bevel is the easiest part, the initial grinding of a new edge reflects the way the razor will shave once it's finished.
Other obstacles that could get in the way apart from an incorrectly set bevel are: (in order of the most common)
- Not enough time on the low grits
- Too much pressure on the hones
- Over honing on the higher grits which can cause microchips
- Not making contact with the entire edge of the blade (this is where the 1x6 shines)
- A hone that's not lapped correctly
- The edges and corners of the hone aren't chamfered
- Excessive warping in the blade
Don't take this with a grain of salt. I've caught out professional restorers that do it for a living with those simple yet dreadful mistakes. It's easy to make those mistakes but just as easy to avoid them.
The shapton 30k is the same grit as the Suehiro Gokumyo 20k. How??
Well the ratings vary between eastern, western and asian grit ratings, even Norton and Chosera have their own rating. You can google a conversion chart to give you all the details. I often like working in microns more than grits because the standard is the same across the globe. So the SG 20k and the Shapton 30k believe it or not are both 0.5 microns (or 0.48) which means the grit particles are exactly the same size, just rated differently.
A lot of really, really good points, Mark.
I have been starting at about 3000, so you say I should start lower on the next hone?
I really don't apply any actual pressure to the blade other than to keep it level on the stone. I learned this at a young age, sharpening pocket and fishing knives on oil stones.
All of my stones are currently chamfered, but I need to re-flatten the 13k. to my eye it is a little bowed. Out with the perspex and wet/dry!
Still, the blade cuts me well. Shaves nicely too! I just can't help but feel it could be a little more keen.
I have been starting at about 3000, so you say I should start lower on the next hone?
I really don't apply any actual pressure to the blade other than to keep it level on the stone. I learned this at a young age, sharpening pocket and fishing knives on oil stones.
All of my stones are currently chamfered, but I need to re-flatten the 13k. to my eye it is a little bowed. Out with the perspex and wet/dry!
Still, the blade cuts me well. Shaves nicely too! I just can't help but feel it could be a little more keen.
Starting on the 3k is fine and you can set a bevel on it although it would take me a lot longer. Everyone's honing style varies so I'll use mine as an example. Let's say an average hollow ground razor would take me 5-10min to set the bevel correctly on a 1k chosera, shapton or king. If I was to start on the 3k it would take me a lot more time, at least half and hour. This brings us to an equation... More grits less strokes VS Less grits more strokes.
My very first hone was a Norton 4k/8k. I was setting bevels on the 4k and was spending too much time on the 8k trying to polish an incomplete bevel set and didn't know where I went wrong. I thought a 12k would improve my honing so I bought one, boy I was wrong. When I bought the 1k and realised I was setting correct bevels I was getting very acceptable shaves off the 8k in my earlier days.
Lapping: Wet and dry definitely works but it's slow and you need lots of sheets. I used a DMT 325 but I used them so much that I started wearing them out on the lower grits and the natural stones which are extremely hard (some harder than steel). The idea of constantly buying $90 diamond plates too often was very impractical so I went to SIC grit powder, sprinkle some on a hard flat surface such as a granite tile or glass, add water rub the stone using circles and figure 8s, and it's cheap as chips $11 plus post, once you buy some you'll regret not getting it earlier.
http://goo.gl/9GSWus
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There is a lot of conflicting advice when it comes to sharpening or honing of any sort being and art more than anything else. There are a lot of variances with kitchen knives not only in design but quality as well.
Example... The grind - is it a Japanese or western knife? Is it a symmetrical zero grind bevel? Is it a dual bevel or is it an eastern/asian assymetrical hollow grind? Is it carbon steel or stainless steel?
All of those types do vary in the style of sharpening. I got too excited with it and made all my kitchen knives shave ready but the guys here don't know how to use chopping boards and smack the edge on a glass table and there goes all my hard work LOL
Sure man, let me know what you've got and I'll help you out, @borked its the same principal. ie.. grind in a new primary edge than polish it. But different techniques, different style of honing etc.. they're a completely different animal.
I've got a 1000/8000 (I think) stone. Double sided. Shun brand from memory.
Knives are global brand. So symmetrical 15 degree edge is what I think they recommend (22.5 for German steel). All are stainless steel, but my big chef knife is from their professional range, so is a much better steel than their regular consumer range (which the rest are, as are simply from a block set). I think it's forged or something...
Knives are global brand. So symmetrical 15 degree edge is what I think they recommend (22.5 for German steel). All are stainless steel, but my big chef knife is from their professional range, so is a much better steel than their regular consumer range (which the rest are, as are simply from a block set). I think it's forged or something...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they're a japanese style build with a dual bevel (jigane and hagane). Providing that it's relatively new you'll only need to work on the hagane (cutting edge). 8k is very high for knives and considered the sword polishing stage. For something like that I would use a 1k then 5 or 6k or even a soft natural stone but 8k is fine it just means you have to do a lot more work to erase the 1k scratches, in that case I'd be building a nice thick slurry on the 8k to start off with using a DMT or an 8k nagura which are very cheap and you just rub it on your stone to raise a slurry.
The technique I would use is similar to a microbevel sharpening style. still keep the 15 degree angle if thats how the blade was ground and have the heel and toe pointed to each opposite corner and start doing strokes from there, will take a bit of practice but you could get it killer sharp if you spend enough time working the bevel evenly. Here's a good example of the technique that I'm referring to except I finish off every stone with very short strokes which assists in leaving a good polish.
okay @filobiblic you did it, between yourself and @Mark you both got me curious - I have a straight and a strop in the mail today coming my way. I'm taking the leap from DE to a straight.
Ya gonna luv it.
filobiblic
Facepeeler Extraordinare
State Convenor - NSW
Group Buy Caporegime
2017 Sabbatical Fail
2016 Sabbatical Fail
2015 Sabbatical Fail
Shave 15
Since it still takes extra time to shave with a straight, I had to stop and run half-way through a single pass. I wouldn't have had enough time with a DE either. One of those days...
Shave 16
Really cracking now with the first pass (WTG). The straight mowed through the 2 day stubble with no effort. Smooth and great results. So I thought I'd start making a XTG pass...
The first issue was holding the razor and working out which way to go. The second was that it was going so smoothly, and I felt too confident, that... I cut myself.
It's interesting but I find that cutting yourself with a straight is a clean wound and doesn't hurt really. (What hurt was thinking about putting styptic on it!!! So I didn't.) This was a 1 inch cut a couple of mm deep. Not bad, but not good. Oozing blood which stopped after applying pressure. After 10 min there was no more blood and its sealed by itself. It's actually smooth to the touch now and although there could be a scar, I feel it's unlikely.
Giving myself a good cut certainly knocked the wind out of the sails; I finished the shave with a DE rather than finished the new pass. But I think after a day or two it'll be back to it. I think a cut is instant feedback on your shaves - much more than with a DE. With a DE, a lot of your feedback comes post-shave with the alum or AS or redness. Sure, there may be weepers or scraping as you go and you adjust accordingly. But nothing as instant and telling as cutting yourself with a straight.
What I learnt from this "feedback" was that twofold: I became over-confident and too careless going XTG/ATG. I got too confident with a new direction/style. After only going WTG for 15 shaves, I started a new pass going chin to ear which is almost ATG for me. But I now know that going XTG/ATG means you're more likely to catch and dig into the skin more easily. I didn't have a good hold on the razor and was cocky after having such a great first pass.
I recently came across this helpful image on cutting angles. Reflecting on what I did wrong, I probably had too great an angle for the XTG/ATG pass. (I'm just glad I cut my cheek near the ear and not on the soft skin of the neck or throat!)
Any thoughts and feedback on the second pass? Should it be XTG or ATG? Is this idea of a shallower angle for XTG/ATG correct? Thanks!
Since it still takes extra time to shave with a straight, I had to stop and run half-way through a single pass. I wouldn't have had enough time with a DE either. One of those days...
Shave 16
Really cracking now with the first pass (WTG). The straight mowed through the 2 day stubble with no effort. Smooth and great results. So I thought I'd start making a XTG pass...
The first issue was holding the razor and working out which way to go. The second was that it was going so smoothly, and I felt too confident, that... I cut myself.
It's interesting but I find that cutting yourself with a straight is a clean wound and doesn't hurt really. (What hurt was thinking about putting styptic on it!!! So I didn't.) This was a 1 inch cut a couple of mm deep. Not bad, but not good. Oozing blood which stopped after applying pressure. After 10 min there was no more blood and its sealed by itself. It's actually smooth to the touch now and although there could be a scar, I feel it's unlikely.
Giving myself a good cut certainly knocked the wind out of the sails; I finished the shave with a DE rather than finished the new pass. But I think after a day or two it'll be back to it. I think a cut is instant feedback on your shaves - much more than with a DE. With a DE, a lot of your feedback comes post-shave with the alum or AS or redness. Sure, there may be weepers or scraping as you go and you adjust accordingly. But nothing as instant and telling as cutting yourself with a straight.
What I learnt from this "feedback" was that twofold: I became over-confident and too careless going XTG/ATG. I got too confident with a new direction/style. After only going WTG for 15 shaves, I started a new pass going chin to ear which is almost ATG for me. But I now know that going XTG/ATG means you're more likely to catch and dig into the skin more easily. I didn't have a good hold on the razor and was cocky after having such a great first pass.
I recently came across this helpful image on cutting angles. Reflecting on what I did wrong, I probably had too great an angle for the XTG/ATG pass. (I'm just glad I cut my cheek near the ear and not on the soft skin of the neck or throat!)
Any thoughts and feedback on the second pass? Should it be XTG or ATG? Is this idea of a shallower angle for XTG/ATG correct? Thanks!
Looking at the above pic and post, I'm kind of glad I piffed my Kabrand straight to @gthomas04 and wouldn't blame him if he never gets it shave sharp either.
I love the idea of a straight but the practicality of it just doesn't work out for me.
I love the idea of a straight but the practicality of it just doesn't work out for me.
filobiblic
Facepeeler Extraordinare
State Convenor - NSW
Group Buy Caporegime
2017 Sabbatical Fail
2016 Sabbatical Fail
2015 Sabbatical Fail
You chicken?! [emoji13]
Nah, I can understand why. DE is very safe and tame compared to a straight. I definitely see how it revolutionised shaving. But I also can now see the skill and technique of using one. It's a good challenge. [emoji106]
As sexy as their mystique is, with straights I always come back to the same conundrum: Risk vs Reward. 